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Kevin B Moses

I think Lebron might come after Marc Gasol

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12 hours ago, Dwash said:

And while you are analyzing titles, you have missed the part where most fans just says they want to be able to compete for a title. No matter how they get there, now or later, blow up or not, just compete. You are the only fool who seems to think that this roster as currently constructed is actually doing that.

I think the Grizzlies have a better shot at winning a championship by being patient and trying to find good players to go with what we have.

I don't think we should let tony and zbo go just to get younger. If the grizzlies could bring in a good young talented player and it meant that we couldn't sign zbo and tony, do it.

But I am not an advocate of getting worse just to get younger. Tony and zbo are valuable on multiple levels to our younger players and to our team. 

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16 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

(1) You want another definition: Synecdoche, meaning part for a whole.

(2) I am making a hyperbolic statement where the truth of the statement lies in how much of it is actually truth. 

(3) My real point is that it is dangerous to swim in the deep part of the ocean because you might drown.

(4) If you can understand that, you'll get a lot more out of my posts. 

(1) Synecdoche has nothing to do with anything covered here. 

(2) Hyperbole is fine, everything after "statement" is nonsense

(3) Straight-up question, no snark: how does that relate in any way to basketball, winning, etc.? I'm really not seeing it. 

(4) Since you're playing with sesquipedalianism, here's another big word: Condescending. 

 

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10 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

I think the Grizzlies have a better shot at winning a championship by being patient and trying to find good players to go with what we have.

I don't think we should let tony and zbo go just to get younger. If the grizzlies could bring in a good young talented player and it meant that we couldn't sign zbo and tony, do it.

But I am not an advocate of getting worse just to get younger. Tony and zbo are valuable on multiple levels to our younger players and to our team. 

This doesn't even make sense. Do you think people are advocating getting rid of Zbo and TA to replace them with a young player that stinks?

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Good, I want Marc Gasol's bum *** as far away from this team as possible.  Dude is PAINFUL to watch most games. Never seen someone with so little self esteem I can't stomach another year of it.

It got to the point where Brevin couldn't even stand him anymore and was vocal about it, he let's the team down year after year when it counts.

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20 hours ago, Allen said:

This doesn't even make sense. Do you think people are advocating getting rid of Zbo and TA to replace them with a young player that stinks?

When they're makin suggestions like Justin Holiday, yea then that's exactly what people are doin. The realistic targets in free agency/trades that are better options than TA n Zbo are very, very limited.

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KBM, you can call it whatever you want. But here is the actual truth: you constantly swarm this boards with half-truths in an attempt to support your opinions. Just be honest and people will stop calling you out on things.

I'm almost at the point where I think the best course of action is to stay the same. We have no picks this year and owe a future one to Boston. We do not have any high quality young players at this time. We do not have the cap room to sign any. If you ride the vets until the end, you most likely continue to sneak into the back end of the playoffs. The team makes money. The team is a non contending, playoff team.

Just don't sign anyone for more than 3 years. At that point, Chandler and Marc come off the cap. Even if you resign Marc, he will be so old that he will be significantly cheaper. Won't owe anyone draft picks. Would finally be able to start over and try to build a champion.

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32 minutes ago, lsugrizzfan said:

KBM, you can call it whatever you want. But here is the actual truth: you constantly swarm this boards with half-truths in an attempt to support your opinions. Just be honest and people will stop calling you out on things.

I'm almost at the point where I think the best course of action is to stay the same. We have no picks this year and owe a future one to Boston. We do not have any high quality young players at this time. We do not have the cap room to sign any. If you ride the vets until the end, you most likely continue to sneak into the back end of the playoffs. The team makes money. The team is a non contending, playoff team.

Just don't sign anyone for more than 3 years. At that point, Chandler and Marc come off the cap. Even if you resign Marc, he will be so old that he will be significantly cheaper. Won't owe anyone draft picks. Would finally be able to start over and try to build a champion.

That's pretty much where I am at.  I know bringing back TA/Zbo is not a popular opinion and I understand.  But they are positive players in the current system and this team for the next 2/3 years is a bottom half playoff team no matter what you do.  I don't see any point of cutting bait at this point.

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On 6/15/2017 at 10:37 PM, Dwash said:

And while you are analyzing titles, you have missed the part where most fans just says they want to be able to compete for a title. No matter how they get there, now or later, blow up or not, just compete. You are the only fool who seems to think that this roster as currently constructed is actually doing that.

I am 100% of the attitude for having a competitive team every season. I suppose that puts me on the middle of the road with some people here. I don't believe the current roster can legitimately beat out the best teams and win a title but I am not in favor of blowing up the team in the hope of reaching lottery gold either. 

having said that isn't it time we left behind the personal arguments and got back to discussing the team? I realize people are upset with a certain poster but instead of attacking the messenger let's discuss the message. 

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34 minutes ago, Dwash said:

That's pretty much where I am at.  I know bringing back TA/Zbo is not a popular opinion and I understand.  But they are positive players in the current system and this team for the next 2/3 years is a bottom half playoff team no matter what you do.  I don't see any point of cutting bait at this point.

The problem with bringing back TA and Zbo is that it makes it more difficult to develop the young guys we do have.    Plus Fiz is only on a 3yr deal so fully giving him the keys to create his vision is hampered by still having to cater to Zbo and TA.     They require a coach to play a certain style of ball if they are a major part of the rotation.   Those guys will ALWAYS be a major part of the rotation as long as they suit up due to outside factors.    That's one major factor that gets overlooked.  Not only are we wasting the young guys time but also Fizdales. 

Moving on from Tony gives more development time for Wade, Daniels, Selden and Ennis.  Moving on from Zbo gives more development time to Davis and more time to figure out what the heck can Martin do.    

I know some of you all will say but those guys aren't better players than Zbo/TA are right now; that may be true in current system but still undetermined in Fizz future system.   Besides a full year of development will allow the FO to determine who is truly worthy of investment.   Can't do that when Zbo has basically highest usage rate on entire team and guys have to #feed50 every time down the floor. 

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1 hour ago, lsugrizzfan said:

KBM, you can call it whatever you want. But here is the actual truth: you constantly swarm this boards with half-truths in an attempt to support your opinions. Just be honest and people will stop calling you out on things.

I'm almost at the point where I think the best course of action is to stay the same. We have no picks this year and owe a future one to Boston. We do not have any high quality young players at this time. We do not have the cap room to sign any. If you ride the vets until the end, you most likely continue to sneak into the back end of the playoffs. The team makes money. The team is a non contending, playoff team.

Just don't sign anyone for more than 3 years. At that point, Chandler and Marc come off the cap. Even if you resign Marc, he will be so old that he will be significantly cheaper. Won't owe anyone draft picks. Would finally be able to start over and try to build a champion.

It's a half-truth that the league is dominated by a handful of teams?

I am just trying to point out to you that I am not trying to write a thesis to support every statement I make, nor should I need to: on a basketball forum where the community should be well-informed fans.

If you are so poorly-informed by the league's shortcomings to parity, then isn't that your problem, not mine?

And after I posted the entirety of the league's championships boil down to about 8 teams and some one-offs, lol, everybody decides to accept my original point that I made 8 posts back from that. lol

I know it might be hard to distinguish my outlandish bull from my other stuff, but trust me, a lot of what people believe about the grizzlies was one started by me and my thoughts. I have a hit list a mile long. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

The problem with bringing back TA and Zbo is that it makes it more difficult to develop the young guys we do have.    Plus Fiz is only on a 3yr deal so fully giving him the keys to create his vision is hampered by still having to cater to Zbo and TA.     They require a coach to play a certain style of ball if they are a major part of the rotation.   Those guys will ALWAYS be a major part of the rotation as long as they suit up due to outside factors.    That's one major factor that gets overlooked.  Not only are we wasting the young guys time but also Fizdales. 

Moving on from Tony gives more development time for Wade, Daniels, Selden and Ennis.  Moving on from Zbo gives more development time to Davis and more time to figure out what the heck can Martin do.    

I know some of you all will say but those guys aren't better players than Zbo/TA are right now; that may be true in current system but still undetermined in Fizz future system.   Besides a full year of development will allow the FO to determine who is truly worthy of investment.   Can't do that when Zbo has basically highest usage rate on entire team and guys have to #feed50 every time down the floor. 

Those young guys are a dime a dozen.  Wade, Selden, Martin, Davis, Harrison are nothing special and there will be plenty more of where that came from when its time to rebuild. They wont change the outlook of this team being a low seed first round out in the next two years.  Let them continue to be the bit players that they will likely be in any system and move on.

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9 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Those young guys are a dime a dozen.  Wade, Selden, Martin, Davis, Harrison are nothing special and there will be plenty more of where that came from when its time to rebuild. They wont change the outlook of this team being a low seed first round out in the next two years.  Let them continue to be the bit players that they will likely be in any system and move on.

Don't forget Rade

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12 minutes ago, Dwash said:

Those young guys are a dime a dozen.  Wade, Selden, Martin, Davis, Harrison are nothing special and there will be plenty more of where that came from when its time to rebuild. They wont change the outlook of this team being a low seed first round out in the next two years.  Let them continue to be the bit players that they will likely be in any system and move on.

I think that's an extreme oversimplification and severely under-rating what Davis and potentially Rade or Wade can become. Even if Harrison, Selden, and Ennis may fit that description.  Remember its not about them taking us from being a low seed the next couple of years.  Its about developing them into assets or pieces for the years after that.  

Kinda hypocritical to complain about team not investing in young players then when there is a real opportunity to do that deciding its better just to keep on running out the borderline washed up vets.   Zbo and TA aren't making us a more competitive team so other than selling t-shirts whats the point in keeping them over the dime a dozen guys?

You also overlooked the Fiz system factor - his contract isn't guaranteed to go into the next phase.   So two more years of Iso Zbo and Trick or Treat killing spacing, while their defense keeps slipping.  While stalling fiz desire to implement modern NBA system. 

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6 minutes ago, Kevin B Moses said:

It's a half-truth that the league is dominated by a handful of teams?

Yes, it is a half truth. In fact, the above statement is the half that is true. But that isn't what you said. You said you can count on one hand the number of champions in the last 25 years. That is the untrue part.

As for your list that is a mile long, that absolutely applies to things you were wrong about or thought to be crazy.

Now, the truth is that most titles are won by the same teams. I differ in that I think recent history (let's use the last 31 years), it is more about having a generational talent than what franchise you play for. 

87, 88: Magic Johnson

89, 90: Isiah Thomas

91, 92, 93: Michael Jordan

94, 95: Hakeem Olajuwan

96, 97, 98: Michael Jordan

99: Tim Duncan

00, 01, 02: Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant

03: Tim Duncan

04: The great outlier Pistons team with no Hall of Fame players (only NBA champion in history without one)

05: Tim Duncan

06: DWade, Shaq

07: Tim Duncan

08: Kevin Garnett

09, 10: Kobe Bryant

11: Dirk Nowitzki

12, 13: Lebron James, DWade

14: Tim Duncan

15: Steph Curry

16: Lebron James

17: Kevin Durant, Steph Curry

Shaq, Garnett, Lebron, and Durant are the only ones not drafted by the teams they won with (I consider Kobe a Lakers pick since they traded for the pick and told Charlotte whom to select). Shaq picked his spot as a free agent (market did matter in this situation). Garnett originally vetoed the trade to Boston before being talked into it (so obviously it wasn't the market). Lebron went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh and the beach (so yes, location mattered, but Miami is middle of the pack in NBA market size). Kevin Durant went to Golden State because of the players on the team, not the market (no stars have ever lined up to play in Golden State until they had a loaded team).

To compete for a title requires you to have Hall of Fame talent. I've done the research for you before- the only team without a Hall of Fame talent is the '04 Pistons and I think it was only 3 teams (the Pistons being 1 of those 3) that won without a Hall of Fame player that was drafted by that team. Memphis does not have that on the team.

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10 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I think that's an extreme oversimplification and severely under-rating what Davis and potentially Rade or Wade can become. Even if Harrison, Selden, and Ennis may fit that description.  Remember its not about them taking us from being a low seed the next couple of years.  Its about developing them into assets or pieces for the years after that.  

Kinda hypocritical to complain about team not investing in young players then when there is a real opportunity to do that deciding its better just to keep on running out the borderline washed up vets.   Zbo and TA aren't making us a more competitive team so other than selling t-shirts whats the point in keeping them over the dime a dozen guys?

You also overlooked the Fiz system factor - his contract isn't guaranteed to go into the next phase.   So two more years of Iso Zbo and Trick or Treat killing spacing, while their defense keeps slipping.  While stalling fiz desire to implement modern NBA system. 

Strange. At one point you are saying that ZBo and TA aren't making the Grizzlies more competitive and the next you admit the young players like Rade (who no one has actually seen play against NBA talent), Davis and Wade et al are not going to improve the team either. You hope they become assets or pieces for the years AFTER the next couple of years if I understand you correctly.

You seem to prefer the hope of late first round and 2nd round picks developing to the knowledge of what veterans provide.  

What you don't mention is why a couple of 2nd round picks and a late first in an acknowledged weak draft would be desirable to other teams in a few years if they aren't desirable now. 

It seems being a competitive team for the next couple of years but not improving is worse than becoming a bad team hoping average players develop for you even if they aren't competitive in between.

As a fan of the team I prefer winning 40+ games to losing 50+ games. I prefer reaching the playoffs and losing to waiting on the ping pong balls to fall our way or hoping some 2nd round picks are going to become pieces of a championship team more than a couple of years from now. 

I've always believed that the coach makes the players. You give young players chances but it is up to them to perform and improve. I haven't seen San Antonio getting rid of quality players to give their young players more opportunity. They do grow young players into roles or acquire elite talent via trade or free agency. 

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47 minutes ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

I think that's an extreme oversimplification and severely under-rating what Davis and potentially Rade or Wade can become. Even if Harrison, Selden, and Ennis may fit that description.  Remember its not about them taking us from being a low seed the next couple of years.  Its about developing them into assets or pieces for the years after that.  

Kinda hypocritical to complain about team not investing in young players then when there is a real opportunity to do that deciding its better just to keep on running out the borderline washed up vets.   Zbo and TA aren't making us a more competitive team so other than selling t-shirts whats the point in keeping them over the dime a dozen guys?

You also overlooked the Fiz system factor - his contract isn't guaranteed to go into the next phase.   So two more years of Iso Zbo and Trick or Treat killing spacing, while their defense keeps slipping.  While stalling fiz desire to implement modern NBA system. 

They (including Rade) will be decent role players at best. Just nothing special about their talent as none appear to have the knack for shot creating, playmaking or anything beyond just being a role player who can play solid defense and make plays when someone sets them up properly. The next era will need to get the foundation players first so any role guys that are developed will just become a bunch of overpriced support guys on a bad team, which is always a horrible way to start a rebuild imo.

Look as you know I am all for the youth, but right now with no picks and no exciting youth the timing and opportunity to commit to developing isnt there. From a business standpoint it just makes no sense for the Grizzlies to rock the boat. There isnt enough to gain over the life of these three huge contracts they have.

Fiz was doomed to eventually get canned from day one as this team will get bad in a few years and he will be the scapegoat. If he is smart he will pull a Joerger and get out.

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6 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

Strange. At one point you are saying that ZBo and TA aren't making the Grizzlies more competitive and the next you admit the young players like Rade (who no one has actually seen play against NBA talent), Davis and Wade et al are not going to improve the team either. You hope they become assets or pieces for the years AFTER the next couple of years if I understand you correctly.

You seem to prefer the hope of late first round and 2nd round picks developing to the knowledge of what veterans provide.  

What you don't mention is why a couple of 2nd round picks and a late first in an acknowledged weak draft would be desirable to other teams in a few years if they aren't desirable now. 

It seems being a competitive team for the next couple of years but not improving is worse than becoming a bad team hoping average players develop for you even if they aren't competitive in between.

As a fan of the team I prefer winning 40+ games to losing 50+ games. I prefer reaching the playoffs and losing to waiting on the ping pong balls to fall our way or hoping some 2nd round picks are going to become pieces of a championship team more than a couple of years from now. 

I've always believed that the coach makes the players. You give young players chances but it is up to them to perform and improve. I haven't seen San Antonio getting rid of quality players to give their young players more opportunity. They do grow young players into roles or acquire elite talent via trade or free agency. 

I will say that the style of the Spurs vets like Manu and Duncan is less imposing on the style of the Spurs youth compared to Zbo/TA. So they are easier to fit into what they do. Still without a top end talent to develop its pointless.

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57 minutes ago, lsugrizzfan said:

Yes, it is a half truth. In fact, the above statement is the half that is true. But that isn't what you said. You said you can count on one hand the number of champions in the last 25 years. That is the untrue part.

As for your list that is a mile long, that absolutely applies to things you were wrong about or thought to be crazy.

Now, the truth is that most titles are won by the same teams. I differ in that I think recent history (let's use the last 31 years), it is more about having a generational talent than what franchise you play for. 

87, 88: Magic Johnson

89, 90: Isiah Thomas

91, 92, 93: Michael Jordan

94, 95: Hakeem Olajuwan

96, 97, 98: Michael Jordan

99: Tim Duncan

00, 01, 02: Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant

03: Tim Duncan

04: The great outlier Pistons team with no Hall of Fame players (only NBA champion in history without one)

05: Tim Duncan

06: DWade, Shaq

07: Tim Duncan

08: Kevin Garnett

09, 10: Kobe Bryant

11: Dirk Nowitzki

12, 13: Lebron James, DWade

14: Tim Duncan

15: Steph Curry

16: Lebron James

17: Kevin Durant, Steph Curry

Shaq, Garnett, Lebron, and Durant are the only ones not drafted by the teams they won with (I consider Kobe a Lakers pick since they traded for the pick and told Charlotte whom to select). Shaq picked his spot as a free agent (market did matter in this situation). Garnett originally vetoed the trade to Boston before being talked into it (so obviously it wasn't the market). Lebron went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh and the beach (so yes, location mattered, but Miami is middle of the pack in NBA market size). Kevin Durant went to Golden State because of the players on the team, not the market (no stars have ever lined up to play in Golden State until they had a loaded team).

To compete for a title requires you to have Hall of Fame talent. I've done the research for you before- the only team without a Hall of Fame talent is the '04 Pistons and I think it was only 3 teams (the Pistons being 1 of those 3) that won without a Hall of Fame player that was drafted by that team. Memphis does not have that on the team.

You've made it abundantly clear that unless you have to have a hall of fame talent you aren't winning a championship. The problem is that your method for getting one is supremely flawed: based on a half-truth.

Barkley never one a championship. He's a hall of famer. Patrick never one a championship. Hall of famer. Stockton and Malone.

What you fail to see is: Kobe doesn't win a championship without Shaq or Pau. Micheal Jordan loses to Shaq's Magic team, next year he goes out and gets Dennis. Lebron was so frustrated with Cleveland that he recruits Bosh and Wade to win his title. Then he joins Cleveland and recruits Kevin Love. Curry loses to Lebron, recruits KD. KG joins Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Hakeem gets Clyde Drexler to win a championship. Dwade gets Shaq and Lebron.

 

You wanna know the common denominator in this? They all went to teams with big sexy markets. So call me when Memphis becomes that.

Also, by the time Dirk won his championship, y'all would have had him traded 10 times over. So please don't use him as a rallying point, and they still recruited vets to make that team what it was. Other than that The Spurs and the Warriors drafted really well to get the team that had put together. But that hardly ever will happen again. In fact, Curry's unexpected dominance was so out of left field that Under Armor, not Nike, got the guy's shoe deal, and the spurs lucked out by having Robinson go down with an injury and they were way ahead of the international curve with Parker and Ginobili.

 

The grizzlies only shot at a championship is the Mav's way or the pistons way. It is to play strong defense and half-court and get veterans and try to out-chemistry the other teams.

 

Another example: Paul George, 7th year, says he is leaving the pacers for Lakers, Lebron is hinted at joining to the lakers. Just like I said. It's a big market league, and the sooner you realize that the better.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

You've made it abundantly clear that unless you have to have a hall of fame talent you aren't winning a championship. The problem is that your method for getting one is supremely flawed: based on a half-truth.

Barkley never one a championship. He's a hall of famer. Patrick never one a championship. Hall of famer. Stockton and Malone.

I am not sure where you see the half truth. No one has ever said getting a Hall of Fame player guarantees you a title. Only that you needed one to compete for a title. Melo probably makes the Hall of Fame- will never win a title. You still need talent. More than Memphis has.

 

2 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

What you fail to see is: Kobe doesn't win a championship without Shaq or Pau. Micheal Jordan loses to Shaq's Magic team, next year he goes out and gets Dennis. Lebron was so frustrated with Cleveland that he recruits Bosh and Wade to win his title. Then he joins Cleveland and recruits Kevin Love. Curry loses to Lebron, recruits KD. KG joins Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Hakeem gets Clyde Drexler to win a championship. Dwade gets Shaq and Lebron.

 

You wanna know the common denominator in this? They all went to teams with big sexy markets. So call me when Memphis becomes that.

No I don't fail to see that. I actually believe Shaq is the reason they won the first three titles; that is why I listed him first. Shaq definitely wanted the market. That one I will give to you. Pau was traded there, so he did not choose his big sexy market. Jordan won three titles before Rodman with guys that were drafted by the Bulls, not guys that chose a big sexy market. At the time the Bulls got Rodman, no one else would touch him. The Bulls thought Jordan and Phil Jackson could reign him in- absolutely nothing to do with the market they were in. I'll give you Lebron going to Miami as a sexy market but it is not a big market relative to NBA standards (middle of the pack size wise). KG did not want to go to Boston and originally vetoed the trade; he relented once they told him they were also getting Ray Allen. So for KG, it was not about the market but the players. Houston is a big market so I understand the Drexler one. Prior to Golden State winning, why were no stars lining up to play there? No one ever talked about Durant wanting to live in the Bay Area until they were champs. That is the common thread with most of these- players wanting to play with other great players- not that market.

 

2 hours ago, Kevin B Moses said:

Also, by the time Dirk won his championship, y'all would have had him traded 10 times over. So please don't use him as a rallying point, and they still recruited vets to make that team what it was. Other than that The Spurs and the Warriors drafted really well to get the team that had put together. But that hardly ever will happen again. In fact, Curry's unexpected dominance was so out of left field that Under Armor, not Nike, got the guy's shoe deal, and the spurs lucked out by having Robinson go down with an injury and they were way ahead of the international curve with Parker and Ginobili.

Why would have Memphis fans traded Dirk ten times over? Every year from 2001 to 2012, he was on the all-NBA team. Marc Gasol has made it twice. Zach Randolph has made it once. And Mike Conley is still awaiting his first all star game. So tell me which one of those are you comparing to Dirk? Memphis has never had a superstar. Randolph during the first playoff run is the closest to it. He is treated like royalty in Memphis. I guarantee if Memphis had a true superstar, the fans would worship him.

Yes the Warriors drafted well. And you are correct, no one expected Curry to be dominant. But did anyone expect Jordan to be the greatest of all time and lead the Bulls to six titles? If they had, he wouldn't have went behind Sam Bowie. Luck matters. Same with the Spurs. They got lucky to get Duncan. But they got him. Then they just kept winning. 

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2 hours ago, chipc3 said:

Strange. At one point you are saying that ZBo and TA aren't making the Grizzlies more competitive and the next you admit the young players like Rade (who no one has actually seen play against NBA talent), Davis and Wade et al are not going to improve the team either. You hope they become assets or pieces for the years AFTER the next couple of years if I understand you correctly.

You seem to prefer the hope of late first round and 2nd round picks developing to the knowledge of what veterans provide.  

What you don't mention is why a couple of 2nd round picks and a late first in an acknowledged weak draft would be desirable to other teams in a few years if they aren't desirable now. 

It seems being a competitive team for the next couple of years but not improving is worse than becoming a bad team hoping average players develop for you even if they aren't competitive in between.

As a fan of the team I prefer winning 40+ games to losing 50+ games. I prefer reaching the playoffs and losing to waiting on the ping pong balls to fall our way or hoping some 2nd round picks are going to become pieces of a championship team more than a couple of years from now. 

I've always believed that the coach makes the players. You give young players chances but it is up to them to perform and improve. I haven't seen San Antonio getting rid of quality players to give their young players more opportunity. They do grow young players into roles or acquire elite talent via trade or free agency. 

Yes i prefer to not close the "book" on guys that haven't even been in the league for 2 seasons.  Selden and Harrison both were legit contributors in the Playoffs and most would have never imagined that.  So its not insane to hope to believe that 1 or 2 of the young guys can become a legitimate player for us. 

I have stated  numerous times that i don't believe keeping Zbo and/or TA is the key to the playoffs anyway.  Developing or acquiring Conley a legitimate backup is way more crucial than Zbo isos or TA missing point blank layups.  

2 hours ago, Dwash said:

I will say that the style of the Spurs vets like Manu and Duncan is less imposing on the style of the Spurs youth compared to Zbo/TA. So they are easier to fit into what they do. Still without a top end talent to develop its pointless.

Thanks that is exactly my point.  Notice how i didn't include Vince in my arguments.   Argument can easily be made that VC was our most important older vet this past season, period.  I am not opposed to bringing him back to help mentor the young guys.  

 

3 hours ago, Dwash said:

Look as you know I am all for the youth, but right now with no picks and no exciting youth the timing and opportunity to commit to developing isnt there.

But to further my point I think Davis IS top end/lottery talent.  Keeping high-usage Zbo another couple of years will just hamper his development.   I think Davis, Selden, and Wade all have the potential to be exciting players.   Three athletically gifted and explosive young guys that have already shown good defensive acumen.  They just all need to develop offensively which isn't impossible so how is that not exciting?   Not to mention if we bring athletic hustle guys like JaM and Ennis back  and Daniels shooting 3s from StephCurryLand.   That's a lot of potential for lobs, blocks, deep 3s and rim-shaking dunks in those guys alone.  

Everybody doesn't have to be a Star player to be entertaining worth investment. We have to stop having ADHD with the young guys and expecting them to play like 8yr pros out of the gate. 

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When did you come up with the idea of not closing the book in players until after 2 seasons? Have you given up on Martin or should the team move him into the lineup since he missed both summer leagues and most of his rookie season with foot problems. 

Also, while I don't know how much they really contributed in the playoffs, they both did play more minutes than expected out of need not desire. If the team had better options available then I imagine the coach would have played them. 

When you start saying Selden, Wade, Harrison, Davis, Rade and possibly 2nd year man Martin into a lineup hoping one or two produce that is a lot of ineffective minutes on a team. We aren't talking about working in lottery picks after all. These are all long shot players. 

I'd prefer seeing the team ease one or two guys into significant minutes and not disrupt what has worked here for 7 years. The Grizzlies have an identity and tossing out two main components of that identity to hope on late first and second round picks seems a waste of veteran talent. 

Of course, no one asks me what I prefer. 

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18 minutes ago, chipc3 said:

When did you come up with the idea of not closing the book in players until after 2 seasons? Have you given up on Martin or should the team move him into the lineup since he missed both summer leagues and most of his rookie season with foot problems. 

Also, while I don't know how much they really contributed in the playoffs, they both did play more minutes than expected out of need not desire. If the team had better options available then I imagine the coach would have played them. 

When you start saying Selden, Wade, Harrison, Davis, Rade and possibly 2nd year man Martin into a lineup hoping one or two produce that is a lot of ineffective minutes on a team. We aren't talking about working in lottery picks after all. These are all long shot players. 

I'd prefer seeing the team ease one or two guys into significant minutes and not disrupt what has worked here for 7 years. The Grizzlies have an identity and tossing out two main components of that identity to hope on late first and second round picks seems a waste of veteran talent. 

Of course, no one asks me what I prefer. 

That's really what I am saying.  Sure there are surprise developments sometimes, but in reality there are few surprise developments.  the majority of the time you can see it early on.  I am not interested in clearing room to develop anything less than an All-Star or borderline All-Star talent.  Anything less will barely move the needle.   I don't see that talent level in any of these young guys.

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are you two seriously thinking i am saying just go full lineup of nothing but those young guys playing 30 mins a night?  

I am looking at Mike, Marc, Chandler, and JaM (maybe Vince) as being the main vet guys.   Daniels and Ennis now have enough experience where they should no longer be considered among the young rookies.    That's potentially your top 7 experienced guys already in-house.  I have suggested making a move to acquire another vet via a trade (like Shabazz, Johnson, Waiters,Calderon, etc) that can help round out the main rotation.   

Surely, Harrison has improved enough to be considered a contributor next season and Davis should be  moved up to full-time backup for Marc.   Martin, Wade, Seldon, and Rade can continue developing with a real opportunity to carve out a role in the rotation.  Sort of like how Fizz gave Harrison and Wade a chance beginning of the season to see who would emerge. 

Should be a nice mix of players in both rotations that allows the young guys opportunity.

Mike/Harrison/Wade

Selden/Daniels

*Vince*/Ennis/Rade

JaM/Parsons/Martin

Gasol/Davis

 

* Resign Vince or Add a free agent for MLE and how is this roster any worse than what we had last season?    Healthy Mike and Marc gets us into playoffs and a healthy Chandler Parsons is what gets us past the first round.   Zbo and TA aint changing that dynamic.   Bringing them back is just staying on the treadmill but running it in reverse.   

Getting the talent you want DWash requires moving either Mike or Marc(my vote) but we know that ain't happening.   

 

 

 

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You are still ignoring/missing the business standpoint of not resigning TA/Zbo and from a chemistry and team image standpoint (in the locker room too) and you are just being naive if you think it wont be a factor.

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7 hours ago, GrizzTigerFan said:

The problem with bringing back TA and Zbo is that it makes it more difficult to develop the young guys we do have.    Plus Fiz is only on a 3yr deal so fully giving him the keys to create his vision is hampered by still having to cater to Zbo and TA.     They require a coach to play a certain style of ball if they are a major part of the rotation.   Those guys will ALWAYS be a major part of the rotation as long as they suit up due to outside factors.    That's one major factor that gets overlooked.  Not only are we wasting the young guys time but also Fizdales. 

Moving on from Tony gives more development time for Wade, Daniels, Selden and Ennis.  Moving on from Zbo gives more development time to Davis and more time to figure out what the heck can Martin do.    

I know some of you all will say but those guys aren't better players than Zbo/TA are right now; that may be true in current system but still undetermined in Fizz future system.   Besides a full year of development will allow the FO to determine who is truly worthy of investment.   Can't do that when Zbo has basically highest usage rate on entire team and guys have to #feed50 every time down the floor. 

problem solved:

conley/harrison/parson/jam/gasol

baldwin/ta/ennis/z-bo/davis

that gives us 4 youn guys playing major mins

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