The_PROOF

Troy Williams Appreciation Thread

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I have actually told you before just check some of your old direct messages from me.  I don't believe in putting people on blast that are still working within the industry. 

 

Besides the freaking beat writer has said the same thing about Joerger and every radio personality.   You are the only person on this board who has to hear the coach directly say "I don't like playing young guys", before believing it. 

 

I don't have any record in my private messages from you. I don't remember any private messages when you told me any insider who told you about Joerger or Hollins' dislike of rookies. I strongly doubt Hollins, who started as a rookie in Portland, would be against rookies in general but I could see him being against unqualified or unprepared rookies getting PT. Hollins started Conley. He played Lowry. He played Gay albeit less than some wanted. Joerger played Calathes, Podexter, Davis and Leuer who were all on rookie contracts. He clashed with them. He didn't play them a lot but we need to remember that Joerger was in a "win or else" mode right from the beginning. That affects your desire to plan for the future, allow players to make mistakes and to think of anything other than maximizing wins now. 

 

In contrast, Fizdale is heading back toward the veteran only rotation that Joerger and Hollins have been criticized about with no expectation of winning this year. People are not expecting a run to the NBA Finals. Wallace hired Fizdale with Pera's okay so there isn't anyone looking over his shoulder like Joerger had who was hired by Levien and Pera was rumored to try and fire 2 weeks into his first year.

 

I'm also not saying that Fizdale should be criticized for this. I am only asking the hatred of Joerger and Hollins for doing the same thing needs to end. These men did their best in a tough situation. Hollins transformed this franchise from the worst in professional sports to a final 4 franchise his last year here. Joerger continued the success to the point that the Grizzlies have the 3rd longest active stretch of playoff appearances in the NBA.  

 

I want Fizdale to continue that success and I want Wallace to make great picks, intelligent roster moves and smart contract signings. I haven't seen Wallace do that much lately but I want him to do it going forward and possibly, signing Douglas and dumping Williams will be the first in a number of smart moves. I sincerely want that.  

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@Chip you are being ridiculous trying to assert that Fiz dislikes playing young guys in the same vein as Hollins and Joerger.    

 

Harrison(a rookie) was closing and playing over 30mpg even when Vince, Tony, and Ennis were available.   I don't understand why Fiz gets no credit for giving Harrison time.   

 

He played Jarrell legitimate minutes and even started him.   Troy Williams started and got minutes as an undrafted rookie.  You cannot automatically assume this was only because of injuries.  

 

Ennis and JaM are young guys (NBA experience) getting real rotation minutes and have legit roles.  Joerger didn't want Ennis at all.   Lionel would've never played Daniels (another young guy) because of his defensive shortcomings.

 

The entire composition of this roster was crappy to begin with.   NO COACH would be able to navigate 4 completely inexperienced rookies with aging veterans and big money players coming off serious injuries - 100% successfully.  Some of ya'll aren't being realistic.

 

Moving Troy Williams to sign Toney Douglas is a Wallace failure.   Fiz has already SHOWN that he is willing to play young guys.   Chip what do you want him to do?   Start Wade + Williams and Davis together and play them 35mpg?   I understand by being a Grizz fan for so long that you really don't have a true understanding of what rookie development means.   Giving them minutes outside of garbage time and giving them a real opportunity to earn their spot is all a coach can do.  Whenever the vets were stinking it up - Fiz had no problem bringing in the young guys.   Joerger would never do that. 

 

Realistically, most teams can only develop at most 2  rookies on a playoff team at a time.  There are only two spots on our roster where those minutes can be given out due to the clutter on the wing.   Point Guard and Center.  Fiz obviously played Harrison and gave Wade a chance too.   Davis got real NBA minutes outside of garbage time but he has been injured.  Williams is battling an overall productive Vince, Tony, Ennis and surgent Daniels for minutes.   Not to mention he gets further pushed out due to integration of Chandler.    There is no justification that Troy Williams as an undrafted rookie can get minutes over all those guys;unless Fiz is willing to deal with a full fledged mutiny Troy is the casualty of Wallace's roster failure. 

 

 Spurs get a ton of love when it comes to development but even they don't throw 3-4 rookies out there in the same season.   Typically they focus on integrating one rookie a season.  Which is something I personally have been begging for.   No sane basketball fan thinks a playoff team should be trying to integrate 4 rookies and a limited experienced second year guy into the rotation.   

Let's dispel this ridiculously stupid notion that Hollins didn't play young guys.  Hollins first season as head coach his starting lineup had three rookies, one second year player, and one third year player.  The following season two of those three rookies were still starting along with the second and third year guys and he played his new crop of rookies over 3000 minutes.  The following season he tried inserting one of the rookies into the starting lineup until he was injured, and another became the primary backup at PG.  Although he was only able to get 1500 minutes from his new crop of rookies he still played the second year guys a total of 1985 minutes while the rookies, second and third year players of his first season coaching still got the bulk of minutes.  If Hollins played young players less as the years went by it was because our draft picks were much lower and less qualified.

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SMDH at this one. Instead of getting rid of Wade Baldwin's non-producing *** or trash *** Andrew Harrison, we cut the one guy who actually plays like he belongs in the NBA.

 

I really hate that they dropped him from the team. 

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Let's dispel this ridiculously stupid notion that Hollins didn't play young guys.  Hollins first season as head coach his starting lineup had three rookies, one second year player, and one third year player.  The following season two of those three rookies were still starting along with the second and third year guys and he played his new crop of rookies over 3000 minutes.  The following season he tried inserting one of the rookies into the starting lineup until he was injured, and another became the primary backup at PG.  Although he was only able to get 1500 minutes from his new crop of rookies he still played the second year guys a total of 1985 minutes while the rookies, second and third year players of his first season coaching still got the bulk of minutes.  If Hollins played young players less as the years went by it was because our draft picks were much lower and less qualified.

 

While I appreciate the effort, give it up. The truth isn't as important as "the heart of the story" for some people. 

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Let's dispel this ridiculously stupid notion that Hollins didn't play young guys.  Hollins first season as head coach his starting lineup had three rookies, one second year player, and one third year player.  The following season two of those three rookies were still starting along with the second and third year guys and he played his new crop of rookies over 3000 minutes.  The following season he tried inserting one of the rookies into the starting lineup until he was injured, and another became the primary backup at PG.  Although he was only able to get 1500 minutes from his new crop of rookies he still played the second year guys a total of 1985 minutes while the rookies, second and third year players of his first season coaching still got the bulk of minutes.  If Hollins played young players less as the years went by it was because our draft picks were much lower and less qualified.

I agree that Hollins wasn't as bad as Joerger when it comes to playing young guys.  My problem with Hollins was the way he treated them.  The way he dealt with young'ins (not named Mike Conley) was to be extremely impatient with them and crush their confidence. 

 

Even his best friend Ron Tillery will attest to the fact that Hollins preferred to not play young or unproven guys.    Joerger is the poster-boy for not playing youngsters along with guys like Larry Brown. 

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I agree that Hollins wasn't as bad as Joerger when it comes to playing young guys.  My problem with Hollins was the way he treated them.  The way he dealt with young'ins (not named Mike Conley) was to be extremely impatient with them and crush their confidence. 

 

Even his best friend Ron Tillery will attest to the fact that Hollins preferred to not play young or unproven guys.    Joerger is the poster-boy for not playing youngsters along with guys like Larry Brown. 

 

Hollins preferred not to play youngsters but was forced to because the team didn't have any vets better. 

 

Sounds just like Fizdale right now. Or is Fizdale going to play Harrison and Baldwin ahead of Toney Douglas? 

 

Joerger being thrown in the same category as a Hall of Fame coach? Is that supposed to be an insult? 

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I agree that Hollins wasn't as bad as Joerger when it comes to playing young guys.  My problem with Hollins was the way he treated them.  The way he dealt with young'ins (not named Mike Conley) was to be extremely impatient with them and crush their confidence. 

 

Even his best friend Ron Tillery will attest to the fact that Hollins preferred to not play young or unproven guys.    Joerger is the poster-boy for not playing youngsters along with guys like Larry Brown. 

Hollins played young players that performed.  How many young guys that he did not play showed that they were valuable commodities?

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Lol I'm just saying, Williams stepped up and played big whenever he was called upon this season. What has Baldwin done? Harrison? They're the reason why we have to cut Troy, not Troy himself.

 

I'm not saying cut your first round pick...but don't cut the guy who deserves to be on the team.

 

I feel ya. It really shouldn't have come to this. Goin into the season with two rooks at point was the wrong move that forced this. Even if Baldwin/Harrison were playin well we'd still need a vet with experience backin up Conley. Troy was too deep in the depth chart to really get any more significant minutes this year, barring injury. So hopefully if he ends up back in Iowa i imagine they'll bring him back in for summer league action atleast. It was a move we had to make.

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I'm as mad as anyone, but the only funny thing is how much everyone wanted Douglas back and now doesn't give a ****.

 

We should have DEFINITELY waived Wade or somebody though.. Troy was an absolute stud

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Yes he has people know about him he led all rookies in scoring in the SL and was top in scoring in the preseason. He will get picked up by a bottom feeding team just watch.

 

 

This is my fear, as well.  I really liked Williams. 

 

However, given the fact that not a ton of teams have an available roster space, makes me think he will last all year. Playoff teams want vets, especially someone that might get bought out.  A team that is eliminated probably has an owner that doesn't want to pick up more salary just for the heck of it.

 

However, that still doesn't mean he'll be in the Grizzlies franchise next year when everyone is picking up FA's.

 

If, somehow, the Grizzlies do a trade that opens up a roster spot, I could definitely see them picking him back up. I don't see that happening though.

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Wade Baldwin is someone who I think can still be a good player. He is just to cocky and is still learning how to run a offense. Jarrell Martin actually looked like he was coming into his own as a player last year before he got injured. I don't ever see him being a starter, but can definitely see him being a rotational player

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Very disappointed we are losing Williams. 

 

I am not sure what Fiz or the FO sees in Harrison unless he is gonna be a defensive only type player like Tony in the future where we want to play Mike off the ball. He still seems lost on offense when he actually plays. 

 

How the hell did Chris Wallace get a contract extension???? Not talking about this in particular but all of his moves have been terrible except signing the guys that we already knew would take the 5th year and the extra money/security with it...

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Im perplexed.....wtf?!?

 

Williams has everything this team needs.....and we throw him away like nothing......seriously this FO is starting to ***** me off....we're getting all these soft guys who get put on the injury list if they break a effing nail....i'm hot right now....

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Chris Mannix from Sports Illustrated was on the radio today saying he did NOT forsee a big line of teams wanting to pick up Troy Williams so he did not see it as a big loss for the Grizzlies. 

 

I always wondered what happened to him. He played a decent amount at the beginning of the season.  He was the reason we cut Jordan Adams and now he is gone. 

 

I guess Andrew Harrison has some pictures of Chris Wallace in some compromising positions or something cause they just seem wed to him. No matter how horribly he plays, he keeps getting minutes.  I guess that will go down with TDouglas coming in, but I guess I can see more upside potential in Troy Williams than Harrison, but what do I know.  I guess that is the exact opposite of what Wallace, Hollinger, Stefanski think.  

 

I hate giving up on young talent especially when we have made it such a point of emphasis when hiring Fizz, but I do feel better with Douglas coming in to rest Conley and heck, at the end of games, I like having someone in there that can get hot and drain some shots.  

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Wade Baldwin is someone who I think can still be a good player. He is just to cocky and is still learning how to run a offense. Jarrell Martin actually looked like he was coming into his own as a player last year before he got injured. I don't ever see him being a starter, but can definitely see him being a rotational player

I know this is a Troy W thread but you mentioned Jarell Martin.  I just hope we can develop Martin.  I like his shot from the outside.  It looks fundamentally sound.  He is 6-10 and can handle the ball a decent bit.  He has played organized basketball for only about 6 years, so he has a heck of an upside.  I think he could be a stretch 4 if he concentrates on his shot.  He is quick for his size.  I guess with Jamychal and Zbo, there just arent any minutes for him, but I think he could be quite a good rotation player---didnt say star or superstar but a good rotation player who can contribute

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I liked Williams too, but I think a lot of posters are really overrating him.  The guy gave us 5.3 ppg on under 42% shooting and his 3-pt percentage is the same as Harrison's at 24%.  He also only shot 60% from the line and didn't get there often and turned the ball over at the third highest rate on the team.  I agree he is athletic and has great hustle and effort, and I would like to see him hang around, but he was not setting the world on fire with his play like some of you seem to think.

 

I also don't understand the Harrison hate.  Sure, his shot is not good but I have been listening to posters on these boards for years posting about how shooting is the one skill that can be taught and improved at the NBA level.  So why not be patient with developing Harrison's shot?  He turns the ball over at a lower rate than Mike or Marc and way lower than Wade Baldwin.  He has size and defends, and he gets to the line at the third highest rate on the team and shoots 77% at the stripe.  Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Grizzlies went 8-3 with Harrison starting at the PG spot including the thrashing of OKC by 34 points and the drubbing of GSW by 21 points.  He's a rookie, so why the hate?  I think there are a lot of posters who have some unreasonable expectations and unfounded bias against him.

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I liked Williams too, but I think a lot of posters are really overrating him. The guy gave us 5.3 ppg on under 42% shooting and his 3-pt percentage is the same as Harrison's at 24%. He also only shot 60% from the line and didn't get there often and turned the ball over at the third highest rate on the team. I agree he is athletic and has great hustle and effort, and I would like to see him hang around, but he was not setting the world on fire with his play like some of you seem to think.

 

I also don't understand the Harrison hate. Sure, his shot is not good but I have been listening to posters on these boards for years posting about how shooting is the one skill that can be taught and improved at the NBA level. So why not be patient with developing Harrison's shot? He turns the ball over at a lower rate than Mike or Marc and way lower than Wade Baldwin. He has size and defends, and he gets to the line at the third highest rate on the team and shoots 77% at the stripe. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Grizzlies went 8-3 with Harrison starting at the PG spot including the thrashing of OKC by 34 points and the drubbing of GSW by 21 points. He's a rookie, so why the hate? I think there are a lot of posters who have some unreasonable expectations and unfounded bias against him.

U must be a robot if you think your stats carry any weight in this conversation. Troy was the best rookie on this team and he showed it on the court. He is the only rookie I saw this year that looked like they had any potential to be something next year aside from Davis.

 

Im surprised a loyalist such as yourself doesn't look past his stats and focus on his hustle and drive. Y'all seem to have no problem doing it for TA. Who cares what his stats were he is better than Harrison so he shouldn't have been the one that had to go.

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With the wing being crowded I wonder who we will be picking up in the draft

Thankfully we don't have a pick for Wallace to waste on an injured former McDonald's all american.

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I liked Williams too, but I think a lot of posters are really overrating him.  The guy gave us 5.3 ppg on under 42% shooting and his 3-pt percentage is the same as Harrison's at 24%.  He also only shot 60% from the line and didn't get there often and turned the ball over at the third highest rate on the team.  I agree he is athletic and has great hustle and effort, and I would like to see him hang around, but he was not setting the world on fire with his play like some of you seem to think.

 

I also don't understand the Harrison hate.  Sure, his shot is not good but I have been listening to posters on these boards for years posting about how shooting is the one skill that can be taught and improved at the NBA level.  So why not be patient with developing Harrison's shot?  He turns the ball over at a lower rate than Mike or Marc and way lower than Wade Baldwin.  He has size and defends, and he gets to the line at the third highest rate on the team and shoots 77% at the stripe.  Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Grizzlies went 8-3 with Harrison starting at the PG spot including the thrashing of OKC by 34 points and the drubbing of GSW by 21 points.  He's a rookie, so why the hate?  I think there are a lot of posters who have some unreasonable expectations and unfounded bias against him.

I don't agree with you much but this is an extremely valid way to view everything. 

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U must be a robot if you think your stats carry any weight in this conversation. Troy was the best rookie on this team and he showed it on the court. He is the only rookie I saw this year that looked like they had any potential to be something next year aside from Davis.

 

Im surprised a loyalist such as yourself doesn't look past his stats and focus on his hustle and drive. Y'all seem to have no problem doing it for TA. Who cares what his stats were he is better than Harrison so he shouldn't have been the one that had to go.

I said I would have liked to see him stay, but I guess you overlooked that.  He looked lost on the floor at times, but I guess you overlooked that too.  Easy for you to proclaim him the best rookie without any substantiation.

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