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Thomas

Grizzlies Give Hollins Permission To Interview With Other Teams

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Pops didn't develop Splitter. Splitter was MVP of European league just like Marc. And I know you've said that Hollins didn't develop Marc because Marc was a Euro-league MVP previously.

Haha nice but I guess you have only watched Grizz box scores during the bad years. Gasols first year in league he was limited due to his weight and inability to say on floor due to fatigue. His production went up as his minutes went up which coincided with his running mountains in Spain and dropping 40lbs. You can try to argue that maybe Hollins suggested he loose the weight who knows? But Tiago had a ready made nba body just not the BBIQ to handle speed of game.

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Leonard improved his 3pt shooting vs us.

 

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Haha nice but I guess you have only watched Grizz box scores during the bad years. Gasols first year in league he was limited due to his weight and inability to say on floor due to fatigue. His production went up as his minutes went up which coincided with his running mountains in Spain and dropping 40lbs. You can try to argue that maybe Hollins suggested he loose the weight who knows? But Tiago had a ready made nba body just not the BBIQ to handle speed of game.

So... what it sounds like you're suggesting now is that Hollins had more to do with Marc's development than Pops did Splitter's. That's quite a turnaround.

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I'm pretty sure pops and hollins help the bigs development.

 

 

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I agree with you that Hollins has not done a great job in talent development overall. I just wanted to point out that Davis and Wroten weren't good examples of this problem. I think Hollins development of Quincy has been pretty good. I also think if Hollins had a long term contract he probably would have played the younger players more. As a side note, I think Ed Davis ceiling is very similar to Splitter's. They both can't create their own shot like Zbo but are adept at finishing at the rim and have good defensive potential. Ultimately, I think this separation was more about lack of communication and ego (as you pointed out) and NOT about Xs and Os, 'heart', wns/losses, or talent development.

 

Quincy is a "Hollins type" of player so i fully expected him to get floor time especially because he was used in place of Tony. I don't think Hollins didn't develop ANY players just don't think he deserves as much credit as he gets by some media and fans for development of players on this team.

 

The Davis thing is different because IMHO if you are playing without a contract for a new ownership group the least you could do is try to appease the new guys in some way by playing the CENTERPIECE OF THE MAJOR TRADE that just happened. Lionel made up in his mind that these "nerds" aren't going to mess with me and what i do. So he gambled his extension based on wins, therefore flushing development of assets to singularly chase W's. That is all well and fine if you know the FO's is basing your evaluation solely on that but it was pretty apparent to ME from the few interviews of Levien that they weren't. If i could understand that then why couldn't Lionel??

 

I am cool with keeping Zbo and going all out again next year to chase a ring just get us the proper supporting cast. Davis is a different type of player he is a complimentary offensive player. His true value is centered around ability to play defense. Which means that if you give Davis and Gasol tandem time to gel defensively then you can afford to have a weaker defensive Wing player on the floor that can space the floor (Morrow, Korver, Mayo for example). Now instead of killing Gasol having him cleanup perimeter defensive mistakes you have Davis too.

I stand by my assertion that Prince is the one that needs to go.

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So... what it sounds like you're suggesting now is that Hollins had more to do with Marc's development than Pops did Splitter's. That's quite a turnaround.

 

Nope sorry you got that from my statement let me clarify. I was being facetious because i figured you were too. Tiago needed playing time to develop his post defense to help him stay on court without fouling. Gasol needed to loose weight to stay on the court. He already had the BBIQ and skills.

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Leonard improved his 3pt shooting vs us.

Not sure what you're getting at. The kid has been a solid, consistent 37% from three in his two seasons in the league. He shot 53% from three in the series against us but in the last three games of the series he shot ........................................37% from three which means he had one hot game in game one and reverted to his normal self the rest of the series. Small sample, big deal. How does it relate again?

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Maybe the game plan had something to do with that.

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Nope sorry you got that from my statement let me clarify. I was being facetious because i figured you were too. Tiago needed playing time to develop his post defense to help him stay on court without fouling. Gasol needed to loose weight to stay on the court. He already had the BBIQ and skills.

Okay, cool. I think they both had areas needing development and I think both coaches are partly responsible. The players' work ethic probably took care of the rest.

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Maybe the game plan had something to do with that.

It didn't turn him into a shooter. The whole point is that the Grizzlies do not have as many talented long range shooters on the team as the Spurs do on theirs. Lionel Hollins can't do anything about that. That is the responsibility of the front office.

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Quincy is a "Hollins type" of player so i fully expected him to get floor time especially because he was used in place of Tony. I don't think Hollins didn't develop ANY players just don't think he deserves as much credit as he gets by some media and fans for development of players on this team. The Davis thing is different because IMHO if you are playing without a contract for a new ownership group the least you could do is try to appease the new guys in some way by playing the CENTERPIECE OF THE MAJOR TRADE that just happened. Lionel made up in his mind that these "nerds" aren't going to mess with me and what i do. So he gambled his extension based on wins, therefore flushing development of assets to singularly chase W's. That is all well and fine if you know the FO's is basing your evaluation solely on that but it was pretty apparent to ME from the few interviews of Levien that they weren't. If i could understand that then why couldn't Lionel?? I am cool with keeping Zbo and going all out again next year to chase a ring just get us the proper supporting cast. Davis is a different type of player he is a complimentary offensive player. His true value is centered around ability to play defense. Which means that if you give Davis and Gasol tandem time to gel defensively then you can afford to have a weaker defensive Wing player on the floor that can space the floor (Morrow, Korver, Mayo for example). Now instead of killing Gasol having him cleanup perimeter defensive mistakes you have Davis too. I stand by my assertion that Prince is the one that needs to go.

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Davis or Wroten had not earned the minutes by working to correct issues that the coaching staff have been working with them on? Lionel is pretty old school so I would imagine that he is pretty demanding in what he expects players to accomplish to contribute to the team. I can't imagine him playing a player many minutes if he didn't think he had dedicated himself to the team effort. It's why he wouldn't give in to Allen Iverson. It's how you teach teamwork and discipline. If you reward a player who is not giving everything he is supposed to you will have a breakdown in overall team discipline, and then you will have no team. Of course, this is all speculation, but what I'm getting at is that there may be a lot more to the issue of those guys not getting play time than the rest of us could know. It might not be a case of "I don't want to play with the new toy, I want my old toy!" but an actual basketball/team building issue. If it was one of my convictions or principles at issue it wouldn't matter what the FO said, I would stick to my guns.

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If this is Joergers' defense he **** well needs to learn how to play the pick and roll, the Grizzlies sucked at it. They did get a little better at it when TP joined the team. That doesn't say a whole lot for Joerger.

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Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Davis or Wroten had not earned the minutes by working to correct issues that the coaching staff have been working with them on? Lionel is pretty old school so I would imagine that he is pretty demanding in what he expects players to accomplish to contribute to the team. I can't imagine him playing a player many minutes if he didn't think he had dedicated himself to the team effort. It's why he wouldn't give in to Allen Iverson. It's how you teach teamwork and discipline. If you reward a player who is not giving everything he is supposed to you will have a breakdown in overall team discipline, and then you will have no team. Of course, this is all speculation, but what I'm getting at is that there may be a lot more to the issue of those guys not getting play time than the rest of us could know. It might not be a case of "I don't want to play with the new toy, I want my old toy!" but an actual basketball/team building issue. If it was one of my convictions or principles at issue it wouldn't matter what the FO said, I would stick to my guns.

 

Pretty sure that's true about Wroten. Outside observers including David Thorpe on Vernon show said he had heard that Wroten was immature and not ready for NBA level play.

Of course, if you play him a little bit, he may become more invested and that would give him incentive to mature up.

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I honestly don't think it was the playoffs for Davis was the sole issue. It was the fact that Hollins makes it difficult to evaluate players so they can at least see what they got. he never played leuer and Davis he jerked around his minutes same with Wroten. It was very telling when levien went on radio after Rudy trade and touted the real value of trades was getting Wroten and Davis on floor - then Lionel promptly benched those guys never to be seen.

 

he complained about lack of shooters but never really crafted an offense to take advantage of the ones he had( Wayne and Daye). Cried about lack of backup PG help yet castrated JBay and never gave Wroten burn. That mess gets old - he did the same thing with Heisley and Wallace and assumed Levien would roll with his punches.

 

How many guys did we burn through because Lionel couldn't find a use for them???

 

 

Also a think Tiago was a lesson learned for Pops. He had no idea Zbo was going to do what he did so took him totally by surprise. The next years he just acknowledged that getting athletic decent big men is RARE so he spent the time to develop the asset he had instead of trashing and making FO get him another one. Pops doesn't whine about lack of talent being obtained he just develops the useful assets he has (as long as they have right attitude). Lionel constantly craps on his bosses with his brash comments. Once again Heisley was the same type of guy (foot in mouth) so he fit right in.

levien was a lawyer whose best friend is a politician - he chooses his words Extremely carefully. Does everyone see where I'm going here? Opposites don't always attract :)

 

Same old, same old.

 

I'm pretty sure that you are one of the folks who cursed Hollins for losing the 25pt lead against the Clippers in game one last year. Now you complain that he didn't play the third-stringers enough to evaluate them. Well, his job was to win games and I'm sorry if he didn't play your favorites long enough for you to dot every i on your player eval. He saw those guys on the court at every practice session. He did play them as much as he, the coach, felt was necessary and allowed by circumstances. (The fact that you would even mention Leuer in this regard is dumbfounding.)

 

At the worst, JB's time at the point was not castrating, it was developmental. In the short term it may have even been a team detriment but the experience running the show payed off in the second half of the season with a more versitile JB at the 2. I can't read minds but it looked to me like he drove when he wanted to drive and shot when he wanted to shoot.

 

On the court Wroten plays every bit of his 19 years. I remember us running lots of screens to get Wayne 3pters but after he lit up the Heat defenders stuck to him and he couldn't get his shot off. Daye is inconsistant. With his poor defense, how long can you play him to see if he'll start hitting.

 

You imply that Hollins "benched" Davis to spite Levien. Do you really believe this? I know you guys say it often enough, but do you really believe that Hollins, as a contract-year-coach in need of as many wins as possible, had any doubt that he was doing what was best for the team in choosing DA over Davis? Seriously.

 

smit-tay has already ribbed you about Pops and Splitter. If you're gonna talk about Pops and Hollins player development, you gotta start with the fact that Pops has a lot more power in choosing the players that he has to develop.

 

I will stop here. These same arguments have littered the board for months. You are very prolific. Most folks on this side just give up.

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Pretty sure that's true about Wroten. Outside observers including David Thorpe on Vernon show said he had heard that Wroten was immature and not ready for NBA level play. Of course, if you play him a little bit, he may become more invested and that would give him incentive to mature up.

 

 

Imo, maturity has to start within the person. Getting older or gaining more experience should help, but with some individuals it can be a slow an arduous journey. If he wants to be a keeper in the NBA it would be in Wroten's best interest to accelerate the maturity process. He should know what his strengths and weakness's are. Utilize and strengthen the former, and correct and as much as possible eliminate the latter.

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Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Davis or Wroten had not earned the minutes by working to correct issues that the coaching staff have been working with them on? Lionel is pretty old school so I would imagine that he is pretty demanding in what he expects players to accomplish to contribute to the team. I can't imagine him playing a player many minutes if he didn't think he had dedicated himself to the team effort. It's why he wouldn't give in to Allen Iverson. It's how you teach teamwork and discipline. If you reward a player who is not giving everything he is supposed to you will have a breakdown in overall team discipline, and then you will have no team. Of course, this is all speculation, but what I'm getting at is that there may be a lot more to the issue of those guys not getting play time than the rest of us could know. It might not be a case of "I don't want to play with the new toy, I want my old toy!" but an actual basketball/team building issue. If it was one of my convictions or principles at issue it wouldn't matter what the FO said, I would stick to my guns.

 

I could be persuaded to believe that if it wasn't for the fact that I have heard Hollins say repeatedly that he plays guys by "feel". Every role player on the roster says they are not sure of there minutes from one game to the next. So to me that is counterproductive when trying to "reward" players that practice hard if it still may not result in real minutes. So I disagree when people assume guys aren't playing because they sucked in practice. That probably is true like one out of every eight instances. Bayless Q and Tony have all said in separate interviews that his rotation style is difficult to adjust to.

 

Only players that get guaranteed minutes are his starters- which may be why guys like Tony are so apprehensive to become reserves like Mayo did.

 

I am not excusing guys for not giving all in practice but I think hat is a flimsy excuse. Rudy never got benched when he broke plays or had dumb TOs because he was one of hollins guys. Lionel said he is less patient with guys he deems as role players which to me is why he had little success developing players.

 

Also count Xavier as another guy he wanted to develop because he fit Hollins "eye test" of what a SG should look like (6'6) and his attitude (docile). He said he believed X was next Battier LOL. We got lucky that Quincy actually turned out that way.

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Same old, same old.

 

I'm pretty sure that you are one of the folks who cursed Hollins for losing the 25pt lead against the Clippers in game one last year. Now you complain that he didn't play the third-stringers enough to evaluate them. Well, his job was to win games and I'm sorry if he didn't play your favorites long enough for you to dot every i on your player eval. He saw those guys on the court at every practice session. He did play them as much as he, the coach, felt was necessary and allowed by circumstances. (The fact that you would even mention Leuer in this regard is dumbfounding.)

 

At the worst, JB's time at the point was not castrating, it was developmental. In the short term it may have even been a team detriment but the experience running the show payed off in the second half of the season with a more versitile JB at the 2. I can't read minds but it looked to me like he drove when he wanted to drive and shot when he wanted to shoot.

 

On the court Wroten plays every bit of his 19 years. I remember us running lots of screens to get Wayne 3pters but after he lit up the Heat defenders stuck to him and he couldn't get his shot off. Daye is inconsistant. With his poor defense, how long can you play him to see if he'll start hitting.

 

You imply that Hollins "benched" Davis to spite Levien. Do you really believe this? I know you guys say it often enough, but do you really believe that Hollins, as a contract-year-coach in need of as many wins as possible, had any doubt that he was doing what was best for the team in choosing DA over Davis? Seriously.

 

smit-tay has already ribbed you about Pops and Splitter. If you're gonna talk about Pops and Hollins player development, you gotta start with the fact that Pops has a lot more power in choosing the players that he has to develop.

 

I will stop here. These same arguments have littered the board for months. You are very prolific. Most folks on this side just give up.

 

hahahahaha I can feel the love its tangible.

 

Sure how about you read this article

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=truehoop&id=58751

And get back to me on how similar pops and hollins are when it comes to player development.

 

Looks like to me the guys that were spouting that maybe Hollins wasn't the right guy for the job for this FO going forward were RIGHT.

 

No I'm not saying he benched them to spite levien I'm just telling you what happened. You are welcome to make that leap but don't put it on me.

 

Heck yes I cursed Hollins Rudy Mayo Zbo Gasol and mike or losing that 25pt lead to clippers. We couldn't draw up a play to hit one freaking bucket in 8 minutes??? That's all we needed - I guess hollins only gets credit for victories in your eyes.

 

Also his JOB is whatever his employers ask him to do. If they wanted him to possibly incorporate the new guys a little more then guess what - that became part of his job. He wasn't working for Heisley anymore.

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hahahahaha I can feel the love its tangible. Sure how about you read this article http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=truehoop&id=58751 And get back to me on how similar pops and hollins are when it comes to player development. Looks like to me the guys that were spouting that maybe Hollins wasn't the right guy for the job for this FO going forward were RIGHT. No I'm not saying he benched them to spite levien I'm just telling you what happened. You are welcome to make that leap but don't put it on me. Heck yes I cursed Hollins Rudy Mayo Zbo Gasol and mike or losing that 25pt lead to clippers. We couldn't draw up a play to hit one freaking bucket in 8 minutes??? That's all we needed - I guess hollins only gets credit for victories in your eyes. Also his JOB is whatever his employers ask him to do. If they wanted him to possibly incorporate the new guys a little more then guess what - that became part of his job. He wasn't working for Heisley anymore.

 

no other front office follows to the letter what the media speculates about more than this front office.

 

You might think this is a good thing, but how many sports writers REALLY KNOW the grizzlies? Not many. It's like Pera and Co. evaluate the grizzlies (not by the actual team on the floor or by asking the coach of the team), but by what the prevailing opinion is in the national media.

 

Pera and Hollinger are a joke and remain so and Lievin is the ring leader.

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What I'm saying is I don't argue that Hollins got his players to play HARD. But he didn't always get his team to play SMART. I believe the team now will play more intelligently but maybe not as hard. I expect them to be as competitive as they have been.

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What I'm saying is I don't argue that Hollins got his players to play HARD. But he didn't always get his team to play SMART. I believe the team now will play more intelligently but maybe not as hard. I expect them to be as competitive as they have been.

 

the grizzlies are easily one of the most consistent basketball teams night in and night out. they NEVER get blown out. They are one of the smartest defensive teams in the league.

 

but I assume you mean something along the lines of 3 point shooting. "smart" teams use it, dumb teams don't. That, by the way, is ridiculous. Hollins and his crew actually taught the league who the majority of them use the 3 point shot heavily that you can win in this league without the 3 point shot.

 

btw, miami and sa didn't beat the grizzlies and the pacers with 3 point shooting, they beat them with stars: Tony Parker and Lebron. So I am not sure what a "smarter" team could have done since they don't have stars.

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the grizzlies are easily one of the most consistent basketball teams night in and night out. they NEVER get blown out. They are one of the smartest defensive teams in the league. but I assume you mean something along the lines of 3 point shooting. "smart" teams use it, dumb teams don't. That, by the way, is ridiculous. Hollins and his crew actually taught the league who the majority of them use the 3 point shot heavily that you can win in this league without the 3 point shot. btw, miami and sa didn't beat the grizzlies and the pacers with 3 point shooting, they beat them with stars: Tony Parker and Lebron. So I am not sure what a "smarter" team could have done since they don't have stars.

 

Starting Quincy against the Spurs would have a smart move that would have won the Grizz a game or two. That's just one example, but after game 1, it should have been obvious move. But he didn't make it and made the game harder than it should have been. That was a theme of his entire coaching tenure - making the game harder than it should be. Another example is not playing TA against Durant in the 4th of quarter game 1 of that series. We would have swept Okc if he had done that. But he didn't make that adjustment until game 2 (after the media screamed at him that this was an obvious adjustment), and it cost us a game. Again he made the game harder than it should be.

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Starting Quincy against the Spurs would have a smart move that would have won the Grizz a game or two. That's just one example, but after game 1, it should have been obvious move. But he didn't make and made the game harder than it should have been. That was a theme of his entire coaching tenure - making the game harder than it should be. Another example is not playing TA against Durant in the 4th of quarter game 1 of that series. We would have swept Okc if he had done that. But he didn't make that adjustment until game 2 (after the media screamed at him that this was an obvious adjustment), and it cost us a game. Again he made the game harder than it should be.

 

Your examples are debatable and have nothing to do with how smart the team is. It's about rotations. However, I do believe that after the first game in every series the grizzlies improved their play against each and every team. That shows me that Hollins was making the right adjustments for the team.

 

again, say hollins starts pondexter and pops makes an ajustnment by posting up kawhi or danny green all day long. What then genius. Rotations have nothing to do with anything.

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Your examples are debatable and have nothing to do with how smart the team is. It's about rotations. However, I do believe that after the first game in every series the grizzlies improved their play against each and every team. That shows me that Hollins was making the right adjustments for the team. again, say hollins starts pondexter and pops makes an ajustnment by posting up kawhi or danny green all day long. What then genius. Rotations have nothing to do with anything.

 

I'm not saying it would have won us the series but it would have won us a game or two.

The only positive lineup for the Grizz in that series was any combo of players that included Qpon, Gasol and Conley. It's not hard to figure out why: with that lineup, Grizz had their best players in a situation where the Spurs couldn't cheat off of TA or Tayshaun to destroy the Grizz offensive spacing - it didn't have anything to do with the individual matchups with Green or Leonard. But those 3 players only played together like 50min in the whole series.

Again I'm not saying Hollins is an inferior coach - he clearly can get his teams to play hard, which a lot of coaches have a hard time doing. I'm am saying he had definite weaknesses. And I won't miss those.

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ok looking at this grizzlies team what reminds you of hollins? what stands out as something we would lose if he leaves? so far i'm hearing playing hard, that is more of the reflection of the players IMO. A better coach that manages his rosters correctly can get a solid mins out of his players every night instead of beating the starters with 45 mins a game

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I'm still trying to get where Ed Davis was this great "centerpiece/major player" in the Rudy trade. Based upon his three years in the NBA, basketball-reference.com compares him to Thurl Bailey, Mike Olberding, Mike Miller, Robert Horry and Keith van Horn for what they accomplished in their first three years in the league. Those are not "game changing players."

 

One of the most common comparisons many of us make visually is a comparison to Lorenzen Wright, and the stats bear that comparison out.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1∑=1&p1=davised01&y1=2013&p2=wrighlo02&y2=1999

 

But remember, Ren was playing on the Clippers in his first three seasons, back when Loy Vaught was one of their stars (62-152 record during his three seasons there). I love Ren, and think one of the biggest mistakes the Grizzlies organization ever made was not resigning him, but that is neither here nor there. He was not a player that would normally be considered "the centerpiece of a trade" and I'm not going to consider Ed Davis one either until he shows me something more than he has on the court so far.

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